"...When He [Jesus] saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd." Matt 9:36

"Do not rob the poor, because he is poor... for the Lord will take up their case and plunder those who plunder them." Proverbs 22:22-23

Monday, December 5, 2011

"First Fruit" Tithing Teachers - Their Theme Song is "You Ain't Never Had a Friend Like Me"



The above video is the perfect "first fruits" tithing theme song for Ed Young, Perry Noble, Robert Morris, and Stovall Weems who teach the "first fruits" tithing doctrine. They teach their church members that the first 10% of their income belongs to God, that is a "holy portion", and you give it to God by giving it to their church, and in so doing you "redeem" the remaining 90% of your income. In return for your tithe, you get God to "rebuke the devourer".

But it is not just these emergent church mega pastors who have caught on to this. Even Mac Brunson of FBC Jax believes this and teaches it to his people. In Brunson's tithing sermon in October he spent 15 minutes of his sermon explaining the Old Testament book of Leviticus principle of "first fruits", characterizing God's sacrifice of giving Jesus as a "first fruits" tithe.

"God established the tithe to redeem the rest of the material world. God sent his son in the form of a servant...to redeem you, and God established in like manner the tithe to redeem the material world. He [God] says these things [first fruits] are set apart and they're holy to God, and nothing is to interfere with that."

Mac explains that the "tithe" by Christians today is a biblical principal that started at the fall of man in the garden of Eden, instituted by God to "redeem" all material things, and Jesus was God's tithe to us. Then Mac falls right in line with the teachings of Robert Morris and Perry Noble, and declares that the way you get God to bless your finances, is you fork over 10% to your church. It is releases God from his magic lamp:

"God says you set apart that first tenth, that 'first fruit', and the other 90% will be blessed, will be blessed. I'll put my hand on it. I'll watch over it."

And of course this implies that if you don't tithe, God won't watch over it. In fact in the same sermon Brunson uses Bernie Madoff as an example of what becomes of a man who has wealth but doesn't have God's blessings through the tithe (Steve Gaines, you can use this in your next "God robber" sermon). Last year Brunson declared that the tithe is something that a Christian owes to God and must give it to God (i.e. give it to his church) or if you don't, God collects on what he is owed by bringing calamity. This is not an exaggeration; click here to see it for yourself.

According to all these pastors, all you have to do in order to unlock all of God's blessings and benefits for your life is to rub God's magic tithing lamp.

Their doctrine reduces God to a magic genie who is trapped in a golden lamp waiting for you to drop 10% of your income into your nearest 501(c)3 church. When you do, you effectively rub God's magic lamp and the magic genie will appear, and he will be obligated to bless you. If you don't drop the 10% into the plate, then the genie will never appear, he will never be indebted to you, and the magic genie will be unable to protect you from an invisible "devourer" who will begin to consume and waste your money as you live under a curse. I don't think I'm exaggerating one bit - this IS their doctrine.

These preachers' tithing doctrine has much more in common with the Aladdin folk tale portrayed in this Disney video from their 1992 movie, than it does with the Bible. And apparently people are entertained by it and they find it very appealing. It appeals to the consumerism mindset that you can use your money to buy whatever you want in life - you can even secure the blessings of God. The Catholic Church taught this through their indulgences - Robert Morris has even joked about how the tithe is a great bargain, paying only 10% to get God's blessings and buying God's protection from the devourer. Morris and Ed Young even have gone so far as to offer a money-back guarantee.

Aladdin was right to be skeptical of the genie's claims at first. Only difference is that Aladdin's genie could grant him his wishes, but the "genie" sold by the modern day first fruit tithing teachers doesn't exist. God can't be bought for 10% or for any price - he gives the same love and grace to all who trust Christ. But preaching that won't help pay the mega church bills and salaries.

So enjoy the video, or just read the lyrics here.

Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves
Scheherezad-ie had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves
You got a brand of magic never fails
You got some power in your corner now
Some heavy ammunition in your camp
You got some punch, pizzazz, yahoo and how
See all you gotta do is rub that lamp
And I'll say

Mister Aladdin, sir
What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order
Jot it down
You ain't never had a friend like me
No no no

Life is your restaurant
And I'm your maitre d'
C'mon whisper what it is you want
You ain't never had a friend like me

Yes sir, we pride ourselves on service
You're the boss
The king, the shah
Say what you wish
It's yours! True dish
How about a little more Baklava?

Have some of column "A"
Try all of column "B"
I'm in the mood to help you dude
You ain't never had a friend like me

Can your friends do this?
Do your friends do that?
Do your friends pull this out their little hat?
Can your friends go, poof?
Well, looky here
Can your friends go, Abracadabra, let 'er rip
And then make the sucker disappear?

So doncha sit there slack jawed, buggy eyed
I'm here to answer all your midday prayers
You got me bona fide, certified
You got a genie for your chare d'affaires
I got a powerful urge to help you out
So what-cha wish? I really wanna know
You got a list that's three miles long, no doubt
Well, all you gotta do is rub like so - and oh

Mister Aladdin, sir, have a wish or two or three
I'm on the job, you big nabob
You ain't never had a friend, never had a friend
You ain't never had a friend, never had a friend
You ain't never had a friend like me
You ain't never had a friend like me, hah!

55 comments:

Anonymous said...

Some SBC pastors have observed with envy the fabulous financial success of the prosperity gospel folks but haven't been able to swallow the theology.

What you describe above seems to be an acceptable substitute.

William

FBC Jax Watchdog said...

William - In my own city, Jacksonville, Florida, FBC Jax is no longer the big dog. They have been replaced by Celebration Church, pastored by Stovall Weems. Stovall is an Ed Young-type preacher. They are building a multi-million dollar campus in one of the booming areas of Jacksonville, and Stovall teaches prosperity gospel, plain and simple, using Robert Morris' first-fruit tithing nonsense.

Stovall actually brought in Morris to preach at his church a few months ago, and had all his members buy Morris' book "The Blessed Life" as they studied it in their small groups.

So it pays to teach first fruits tithing. It is a form of the prosperity gospel taught by televangelists, repackaged using Old Testament law to convince church goers that they are obeying scripture by tithing, and are buying God's blessing and protection.

As finances get tighter and tighter at mega churches, many pastors I believe will cave in and go with the doctrine of first fruits to obligate members to give more.

Anonymous said...

Well, its good to know that there's another mega-church in Jacksonville that you don't agree with. Poor Mac will probably have to share the state with Weems.

Seems to me that your big issue with tithing is not about its Biblicity but with the fact that you don't do it. I've never had anyone in church complain about the preacher preaching on tithing if they are doing it. Its the ones who don't that complain.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous at 10:16- That is an ignorant statement....ignorant of what the New Testament teaches. Paul goes to a lot of trouble to tell us that we are no longer under the law. We have freedom in Christ. He also denounces those who "peddle the Word of God" for gain. A vast majority of American Christians are Biblically illiterate and accept non-Biblical teaching because they don't know any better. Read up! Be not deceived.

Anonymous said...

Seems to me that your big issue with tithing is not about its Biblicity but with the fact that you don't do it. I've never had anyone in church complain about the preacher preaching on tithing if they are doing it. Its the ones who don't that complain.

If tithing did more that pay for nice things more people would tithe. The American society is in decline in many ways, the spirit of the lord is alowing the prince of the world to rule. The church might as well be a big petifile rind who is sexually atracted to the wrong things.

Some thing is not adding up in the churches. The fruit is not money but the saved who will make it to heaven. The furit of many churches is the all seeing eye on the back of the dollar as well as the male and female symbol of the star of david on the back of the dollar. male points down while the female point up.

money is your savior!!!

Anonymous said...

"I've never had anyone in church complain about the preacher preaching on tithing if they are doing it. Its the ones who don't that complain."

Is that how we determine truth now, by who is complaining?

I always thought that the Bible was the final court of authority.

Of course, I got that from the Bible - not from a mega-church preacher so it could be wrong.

Hey anon - here's your chance to set me straight.

I've been asking this question for years on this blog and no one has been able to answer it. Perhaps you can.

Why did they pay 3 tithes (One to the Levites who weren't allowed to own anything, one for the poor and orphans, and one for festivals) in the OT and we are only taught to pay one tithe today?

Also why did they always pay in food in the OT and we are told to pay cash today?

See if you can get Mac to preach a sermon on that subject and explain it to everyone.

Anonymous said...

None of you wise and learned bloggers are ever going to settle the question of tithing so why don't you give it a rest. Do what the Lord tells you to do and move on to something more beneficial in the Kingdom of God. All this arguing doesn't do a bit of good.

Anonymous said...

OH! CARNAL CHRISTIANS!!!!
THE ISSUES IN CHRISTIANITY ARE 100% SPIRITUAL, THEY DEFILE HUMAN WISDOM AND PHILOSOPHY. NO MATTER HOW EDUCATED YOU ARE WITHOUT BEING SPIRITUAL, YOU CANNOT UNDERSTAND THE THINGS OF THE SPIRIT --- TITHING.
SO THE WAY TO UNDERSTAND TITHING AND ITS MAKE-UPS IS TO BECOME A BORN-AGAIN, WHEN YOU RECEIVE THAT SPIRIT OF SONSHIP, YOU WILL BEGIN TO SEE THE SPIRITUALITY OF TITHING. I MEAN YOU BEGIN TO SEE THINGS "THE SPIRIT-WAY" AND NOT "THE CARNAL-WAY". JESUS CHRIST TOLD US THAT ONE OF THE DUTIES OF THE SPIRIT HE PROMISED US IS THAT " HE WILL TEACH US ALL THINGS" AND WILL BRING IN REMEMBRANCE ALL THAT HE TAUGHT US.
SO NO MATTER HOW YOU READ THE BIBLE WITHOUT THE SPIRIT TEACHING YOU, YOU WILL NEVER UNDERSTAND IT IN "THE SPIRIT-WAY"(if it were easy like that the ethiopian eunoch wouldnt have asked philip(who has the spirit ) to explain to him what he(the ethiopian eunoch) was reading)
SO BELOVED CHRISTIANS, INSTEAD OF RAISING CONTROVERSIAL ISSUES THAT CAN ONLY WEAKEN THE MINDS OF IMMATURE FELLOW CHRISTIANS, LET US ASPIRE TO GET THAT SPIRIT OF SONSHIP WHO IS ABLE TO "TEACH US ALL THINGS"

Anonymous said...

"All this arguing doesn't do a bit of good."

Just happened to watch the movie "Farenheit 451" last night.

They used the very same (lack of) logic to advocate burning books.

"These books all contradict one another and just get people upset - that's why we burn them."

Yes, ignorant bliss is much better isn't it?

I think I will "do what the Lord tells me to do" and contend earnestly for the faith.

Ignoring all of that, your statement is still wrong.

Many people (including myself) have come to a true understanding of the meaning of NT giving through this blog.

And at least one pastor (Jon L. Estes) has changed his mind about the tithe. Although he wouldn't give credit where credit was due, and doesn't plan on filling in his congregation about his new knowledge.

Too much arguing - I guess.

Douglas said...

The whole "tithing" teaching thing for Christians is insidious. Those false teachers are getting desperate and laying guilt trips on folks and heavy burdens upon their backs trying to hold onto the numbers in their purpose driven®/seeker sensitive empires. The true believers, Christians that is, will leave/flee those den of thieves as soon as their eyes are opened and for that we can praise the LORD God Almighty forevermore.

The megachurch bubble? ~ Gene Veith

Will the Mega Church Bubble Burst Soon? – Pirate Christian Radio

”The #NewSpring teaching that God curses people's money & sends the devourer until they redeem their finances with the tithe turns Christ's church into a Mafia protection racket and Jesus into a cosmic Mafia Don who "only wants to protect people from the devourer" but who can't "protect people" until they agree to the 10% shakedown.” ~ Chris Rosebrough

Junkster said...

I already have a Redeemer. I don't need any other form of redemption, and neither do my finances.

Anonymous said...

Did Jesus and the Apostles tithe?

A reason that Jesus paid tithes, was that HE CAME TO LEAD PEOPLE — NOT TO DRIVE THEM TO DO THINGS WHICH HE WAS NOT WILLING TO DO HIMSELF. John 10:27 says, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and THEY FOLLOW ME." He clearly criticized religious leaders who told the people to do things which they themselves were not will to do. Matthew 23:1-4 says, "Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for THEY SAY, AND DO NOT. For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers."

Tithing could be looked at by some as a heavy burden, if the leader himself was not willing to tithe, too. Even the priests in the Old Testament, who lived off from the tithes of God’s people, also had to pay tithes themselves. Numbers 18:26 says, "Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, WHEN YE TAKE OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL THE TITHES which I have given you from them for your inheritance, THEN YE SHALL OFFER UP an heave offering of it for the LORD, even A TENTH PART OF THE TITHE."

Based upon the previous Scriptures, I would say that Jesus and the disciples did practice tithing.

Anonymous said...

"Based upon the previous Scriptures, I would say that Jesus and the disciples did practice tithing."

I don't want to be too harsh because I can't tell if you are trying to be sarcastic or if you are just completely ignorant of hermeneutics.

If it is the later, you are in serious need of a course on proper Biblical interpretation.

You can make the Bible say anything if you don't know how to interpret it correctly.

One way that you can absolutely know for sure that you have interpreted incorrectly is when your interpretation contradicts other scripture.

As in II Corinthians 9:7

You will also need to answer the question of why 3 tithes were preached in the OT and only one is taught for today.

Please study to show yourself approved.

Anonymous said...

"Did Jesus and the Apostles tithe?"

Wow, this is ignorance gone to seed - please pardon the pun.

You do know that the Levites were not allowed to own anything right?

You do realize that the verse is talking about grain and not money right?

You do realize that the verse you quote mentions the Levites and not Jesus or the Apostles right?

Other than those technicalities, you nailed it.

Anonymous said...

Running out of CRAP to blog about. This is the same old CRAP that you have whined about since you got your panties in a wad over Big Daddy Mac. How about blogging on that crazy, homosexual preacher in Georgia whose wife just filed for divorce and him "stepping" down for a "season". Much more newsworthy than pontificating on your arch nemesis Mac Brunson!!!

Anonymous said...

Yes Jesus Tithed.

His death on the cross was a tithe.

Anonymous said...

His death on the cross was way more than a tithe.

It was God's only Son. His all.

Beyond anything we can comprehend.

Please stop diminishing Jesus' death by calling it a tithe.

WishIhadknown said...

Of course Jesus and the Disciples tithed all 3 tithes. Israel was still a theocracy at the time that was their taxation system. If Jesus and the Disciples had not then the Scribes and Pharisees would have something to accuse them of.

Since Israel was a theocracy and the government has assumed most of the roles of that theocracy would not a more appropriate interpretation and teaching be”to pay all your taxes to the U S Treasury?”

I really liked the “you have to be saved like me” post by the guy with stuck caps lock. That’s the same teaching that all cult leaders’ use isn’t it? “I am the one who knows the truth and the only way you can know the truth is to be saved like me and follow me and do as I say.”

How about reading the scriptures exactly the way they are written and applying them in the context the scriptures are written! You simply cannot make a case for tithing without twisting the scripture to make it fit.

Anonymous said...

Tithing works........

Mac tithes and he is blessed.

I tithe and I am blessed.

Dog has already shared earlier that he DOES NOT tithe and it is easy to see....watchdog is NOT Blessed.

The bitterness, anger, meanness I feel from dog is not found in the heart of a tither.

Be careful Brothers what you fill your mind with.

This blog is bad seed and will bring you a bad harvest.

Put your seed in good soil....That is Bible.

Anonymous said...

The fact is Paul who brought the mystery of salvation to the Gentiles never mentioned the word tithe. Whenever anyone speaks of tithing its OT doctrine and HAS NO place in the NT. The Holy Spirit will guide each of us if we allow Him to use our abilities to promote the Kingdom of God and witness for Jesus Christ. Saying that one has to tithe is similar to a protection racket in our day. Someone said worse and worse. If pastors today would spend more time on prophecy and the second coming of Jesus Christ they might actually do something constructive. I assume most stay away from that since they prefer dealing with the almighty dollar.

Anonymous said...

We keep hearing do x (tithe) you will be blessed (get rich) dont tithe.you will be cursed (poor)

So is it safe to say 99% do pf the world doesn't tithe because they are poorer then us? I assume Jesus DIDN'T tithe. He had no place to lay his head!

Since when are material things a sign of Gods blessing? God can bless us with things, but things don't mean we are blessed.

God blesses us with increased love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, tenderness. Our blessing for following Christ is maturity in our spiritual growth that in turn allows us.to give more glory to Him.

Anonymous said...

Why is there only one tithe now, instead of three? I guess the church doesn't want or need people bringing in baskets of grain? The pastor wants cash, not food? The government takes care of the very poor through its programs.

Does anybody ever ask these pastors for lots of concrete examples of how exactly GOD blesses people if they tithe? What does GOD do for them exactly? Do they get a check in the mail the next day? Is it one they wouldn't have gotten otherwise? Can they stop worrying about going to work to pay the bills, cause God's got it covered and will never let anything bad happen-since they tithe?

People let these pastors make all kinds of vague promises, and the pastors never have to give examples and never have to define terms like "blessings," "prosper," etc.

Anonymous said...

Less than 20% of Christians are tithers. That means that 80% of all Christians are merely tipping God occasionally.

I've done a lot of thinking and praying about this problem.

My conclusion is that some Christians will never tithe because their level of faith is too low and they don't understand the principles of stewardship. Others may have tried tithing for a while, but never experienced a financial blessing, and therefore quit. If you are in either category I only ask that you hear me out, and remain open to a financial breakthrough today.

The tithe is not something that Christians "give" to God. The tithe is PAYED, sort of like paying your taxes. You don't give the IRS your taxes each year, you PAY them ... or else. But, in the kingdom of God we are never coerced to do anything, including supporting our local church. However, we are admonished in both the Old and the New Testaments that a tithe belongs to God, and if we keep it we are robbing His kingdom of the resources to get the job done. (I wonder how fast we could complete the Great Commission if everyone tithed?)

I have personally chosen to give with a large shovel. Some are giving by the cup, others by the teaspoon. It's your choice. We can move God's hand of blessing based on our level of faith to give. The potential for greater blessing exists when we tithe and give generous offerings unto the LORD. This is good news indeed!

Let's all begin tithing for the sake of the gospel, as well as giving generous offerings. Remember: God is not mocked.
Whatever we sow, we will reap!

Mark said...

Tithing is a law under the OLD COVENANT. We are under the NEW COVENANT. Tithing (or tenth) is not taught in the New Testament. If you insist that tithing is still enforce on Christians today, then you must also keep the entirety of Old Testament laws. You can't pick and choose which laws you think should still be kept.
The only reason to keep preaching tithing is 1) ignorance (yes, I believe that these preachers can be theologically ignorant- mostly they teach what they have been taught), 2) they ignore the Biblical evidence against tithing, yet see it as a means to end end to keep the church doors open.

I say it is the preacher who doesn't trust that God will provide by insisting that tithing is still a necessary part of a Christian life. Tithing is a shackle for the Christian because if they give 10% they can sit back and say that they are fulfilling "the law". If preachers would get away from the false "10%" mandate, they actually might see an increase in blessings. Again, it is THEY who don't trust God that he will provide.

Arce said...

In OT Israel and NT Palestine (or Judah), the society was mostly agricultural. The tithe was of crops (all three of them, but one was only every third year). There were also "sacrifices" of the first born offspring of the "herd", which were usually a small number of cattle and sheep. There was no tithe of money.

In Jesus time, there was a "temple tax", which was of the non-roman currency.

As a non-farmer, non-herdsman, Jesus would not have had a crop to tithe nor a herd from which to offer a first-born sacrifice. Neither would his disciples. But they did pay the temple tax when they went to the temple.

Jesus criticized the scribes and pharisees for tithing their herbs (a crop) as a nitpicking application of the law but missing the more important part of the law, which was to care for the poor, widow, orphan, alien, ill, and jailed. Thus he called them hypocrites for focusing on the tithe rather than their social obligations to those in need around them.

So it is unlikely that, during his ministry, Jesus tithed. But he did give generously to those in need out of what little he had other than his power to heal and to perform miracles.

hopeandfaith said...

It makes me feel good to tithe....if it means I am actually giving to the Lord's work. Whenever I see a need and the Holy Spirit urges me, I can tithe with such a blessing on my life. I cannot support any more building programs...anymore Christmas tree extravaganzas, anymore CEO salaries for pastors and their minions, any more reach out programs through megachurces that do little, but advertise greatly. I cannot abide the poor and hungry who do not enter these churches to find the Lord, not even a helping hand. In today's world, we will be seeing more and more stories of families that are running out of options.....and churches promote cruises, wonderful Christmas Broadway type pageants....how many of the people who need to come to Jesus, as Adrian Rogers used to say, actually step inside...and what would they feel like when they were sorely ignored. I welcome the time when churches suspend the way we "do church". Instead of a comfortable place to see your fellow members and plan the next get together, would we not be better served to put our attention to those God has called us to serve. Give out a pamphlet to someone whom you know is hungry, or is broken, and walking away feeling good about yourself is wasting your energy. My tithe is going to those who can benefit from it....those who are desperate for help and the healing balm of a human touch.....and will so appreciate it and consider Jesus.

Arce said...

He also gave of himself and his abilities to heal.

WishIhadknown said...

“I wonder how fast we could complete the Great Commission if everyone tithed?”

It wouldn’t. Where in the passage called the Great Commission does it say anything about tithing?

“…we are admonished in both the Old and the New Testaments that a tithe belongs to God, and if we keep it we are robbing His kingdom of the resources to get the job done.”

Really, where is the church admonished to tithe in either Testament?

Anonymous said...

Its amazing how many theologians we have today. I would imagine that the vast majority of them are without credibility though.

Anonymous said...

"This blog is bad seed and will bring you a bad harvest."

So why do you continue to read it?

I think I'll follow your example and continue reading this blog.

Anonymous said...

Jesus’ ministry was not a poor, poverty-stricken ministry. He had enough funds that a treasurer was required. Not only that, but the treasurer (Judas) was a thief (John 12:4-6) so there must have been enough in the treasury so that the thefts would not be too apparent. Despite His treasurer being a thief, there is nothing in the Scripture that would lead us to believe that Jesus’ ministry ever lacked for money. Would God The Father fail to provide the wherewithal for His Son’s earthly ministry?

Most people know the Roman soldiers “when they had crucified Jesus, took his outer garments and made four parts, a part to every soldier and also the tunic: In other words Jesus’ coat was an expensive garment.

Finally, I call your attention to Mark 14:3-7.
He said "the poor you will have with you always."
Jesus did not count Himself among the poor because Jesus was not poor!

Stop being ignorant and read your Bible.

Peter had a house (Matthew 8:14) and that Matthew had a house big enough to entertain many people (Matthew 9:9-10). When Paul was brought before the governor Felix as a prisoner, the governor hoped that Paul would give him a bribe to free him (Acts 24:26). No one hopes for a bribe from a poor man.

Open your eyes people...God gives us the ability to make money and He expects His 10%.

Anonymous said...

"I have personally chosen to give with a large shovel. Some are giving by the cup"

Matthew 6:3

"Less than 20% of Christians are tithers. That means that 80% of all Christians are merely tipping God occasionally."

Actually the figure is around 5%. Your use of the word "tipping" is telling. Many proponents of the OT tithe think of God as a bell-hop that they can pay off and expect his blessings. That's not how it works.

"My conclusion is that some Christians will never tithe because their level of faith is too low"

Or could it be that their level of hermaneutics is too high.

"The tithe is not something that Christians "give" to God. The tithe is PAYED, sort of like paying your taxes."

You nailed it. You got this exactly right. The OT tithe was a tax and there were 3 of them. These taxes went to priests (who didn't own anything), festivals and the poor. The NT teaches free-will giving which not to be given under compulsion.

"I wonder how fast we could complete the Great Commission if everyone tithed?"

Money is not the problem. Sharing the Gospel is completely free.

"Whatever we sow, we will reap!"

What does the next verse say?
II Corinthians 9:7

1 Thessalonians 5:21 said...

Anonymous (December 6, 2011 9:36 PM) said:

“Be careful Brothers what you fill your mind with.

This blog is bad seed and will bring you a bad harvest.”

“This blog is bad seed”?

You are missing one important point here: One critical problem with today’s Christian ministries is that most of them consider arbitrarily censoring and straightforwardly blocking direct feedback which is critical of their ministry in some way a perfectly reasonable mode of operation. As a result of this, Christians who wish to carry out the spirit of 1 Thessalonians 5:21’s teaching are being forced to use independent and third-party means to freely express their concerns over what various Christian ministries are doing.

For better or worse, FBC Jax Watchdog’s blog serves as one of the said means.

So, for the reason of allowing free speech alone, FBC Jax Watchdog’s blog contains “good seed.” But, beyond this, I would agree that everything which is said here should be evaluated individually.

And you and the Christian churches which you defend need to deal with the fact that increasingly more people, including the rising Millennial Generation in general, have no tolerance for Christian ministries which insist upon having a strictly one-way conversation with them. They will walk away from your type of Churchianity and let it die ignored along with the older generations of passive churchgoers.

Anonymous said...

Here you have it Folks,
all the answers...

Too Little Faith

or

Not Giving Enough, Long Enough

Simple......

Anonymous said...
"My conclusion is

that some Christians will never tithe because their level of faith is too low

and they don't understand the principles of stewardship.

Others may have tried tithing for a while, but never experienced a financial blessing, and therefore quit. "

And Finally

"(I wonder how fast we could complete the Great Commission if everyone tithed?)"

All the World (almost 7 Billion people)

and (maybe) only 100 million real Baptist

Gotta a way to go.....

Anonymous said...

Will a man rob God? Well apparently Jesus thought some of the religious leaders of his day were bold enough to try! They robbed God, by robbing his people of grace, mercy, and truth. And sadly enough today, many of these tithe or be cursed spirits are alive and well today!
Some are just 21st century thieves and robbers.

Kleptes (G2812) - embezzler, pilferer (one who steals espec. in small qty). 
•Denotes one who steals by stealth. Jn.10:1, 8, 10.

Elder gab

•The name is transferred to false teachers, who do not care to instruct men, but abuse their confidence for their own gain.
The root word is Klepto (G2813).

Klepto - (G2813) to steal; commit a theft; to take away by stealth. Jn.10:10; Mt.6:19, 20.

Lestes (G3027) - a robber, plunderer, brigand (a bandit).
• Denotes one who steals openly.
Jn.10:1, 8. Lk.19:46.

New BBC Open Forum said...

I have personally chosen to give with a large shovel.

It shows.

Anonymous said...

hopeandfaith,

Good for you. I think you are on the right track. You enjoy giving to something that you feel actually helps other people. Why give to a large church that mainly functions as a social club? The church people don't need the money. They are using it to pay people to yell at them and for entertainment. Give your money to somebody who needs it, IN YOUR OWN OPINION. I say good for you!!

Anonymous said...

Hey 9:51 am please give a scripture from the NT that says we are supposed to tithe. Also please give me a NT scripture that says I will have financial and other blessing if we tithe. I've read it many times but don't remember verses that tell us what you're saying they do. Why do the tithing supporters not suggest selling all their possessions and sharing the money with fellow believers like they did in Acts ?

Mark said...

There aren't any New Testament scriptures to support tithing. The OT scriptures these preachers use are part of what was known as the Old Covenant, which was nailed to the cross. All of it. Sabbath, 10 commandments, dietary laws, tithing, ritual cleansings, everything.
They twist scriptures from Malachi to say if you aren't giving God a tithe you are robbing God. If you study that book, it is talking to the priests (the ministers!) not the people. In fact, those scriptures convict the pastors who decide to take exorbitant salaries because they rob God of using that money in other ways. They see the fine things and take them.

Keith Johnson said...

So why did you stay at FBC jax for so long? Tithing has been a standard method of giving through the years. You were taught to tithe through all of your time at FBC. Do you really think it is more manipulative than the 'seed and harvest' applications made from 2 Corinthians 8&9? While you may wish to criticize those whom you disdain in pastoral leadership, you cross the line when you brand all who are faithful tithers as people who "are entertained by it and they find it very appealing. It appeals to the consumerism mindset..." You make sincere givers out to be people who only give to get. Tell us how you give- what proportion, what seed do you plant,what harvest do you expect?
I do visit your blog often, because it is one source for increasing my awareness of what's going on in the American church, but your bitterness is obvious. You claim to simply watch and point out what you believe to be unacceptable practices, but the criticisms often take an ugly, acerbic tone. Keith Johnson

Anonymous said...

Hey, "watchdog," can you tell me the date of when you last led someone to the Lord?

Anonymous said...

"Hey, "watchdog," can you tell me the date of when you last led someone to the Lord?"

You seriously need to get a life TROLL.

I mean isn't there something more important you could be doing with your time than being a TROLL on this site?

Perhaps your time would be better spend "leading someone to the Lord."

Anonymous said...

Usually when someone ridicules the statement "leading someone to the Lord", it usually means they haven't ever done it and probably don't even understand what it means.

WishIhadknown said...

The dialogue in this blog is very interesting. To hear some say it, Jesus was a rich man who hung out with other rich men and yet we seem to have forgotten scripture, Matt 8:20 “Jesus replied, "Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head."

One person commented that “God expects His 10%.” No He does not, God expects it all. 100%.

Someone else would seem to have suggested that only Baptists are going to heaven. I would like to go on record as saying being Baptist is not the only way to be Christian and that being Baptist does not automatically make you a Christian.

In other posts we see what the “tithing doctrine” leads to. People hold themselves out to be super saints with superior faith because they give the required 10%. They hold others in disdain that do not pay their 10% accusing them of being bad stewards, or worse robbers. Tell me, in your theology, where does grace and mercy fit in? Given the overwhelming capacity people have to screw up their lives or have their lives screwed up for them, which is most like Christ, to provide a person with the help he so desperately needs or to stand in judgment of them?

I also like the comment about how God gives the ability to make money. I am guessing it goes along with paying 10%. So are we to conclude that people are poor because they have not used the God given ability to make money?

Also, this blog is what you want to make it. It can be evil or it can be good, it’s your choice. Unlike church, everyone has a say.

Anonymous said...

"Tithing has been a standard method of giving through the years."

No one tithed for the first 700 years of the NT church. The idea was borrowed from pagan land lease principles (the common rate was 10%)in the 8th century as a way to raise money for a declining church. Proof texts were used from the OT to support the practice.

Unfortunately, most Christians have no sense of history and how they arrived at where they are today.

Anonymous said...

Someone needs to get a grip on reality. This old corrupt world is going to be burned up and eveything in it. These old buildings that are erected will soon be ashes. Tithing is the last thing on my mind and historically died nearly 2000 years ago. How we treat each other through love is the answer to mans sinful nature. I hardly hear any pastor telling his congregation how to do this...maybe they just never learned this in the seminary.

Thy Peace said...

Off Topic: Stop Baptist Predators [Christa Brown] > Dear Al [Mohler]

Anonymous said...

Read Numbers 18:20-29. Any pastor who is not a Levite, or a priest, YET claims to believe that God's word is the same: yesterday, today, forevermore. But, is willing to say that these verses apply to them, even though Jesus, neither the apostles did, nor would have violated God's LAW: but, in spite of the truth; is still willing to change God's word! Then, that pastor is a false teacher in this particular doctrine of tithing.

Anonymous said...

Off topic: In keeping up with the on going war in the mid east, It is clear that the United States is attempting to provoke Iran to strike first so we can destroy their capabilities with just reason. Just thanking, Pastor Brunson could easily be effective in doing the task.

Anonymous said...

Yes, I heard a pastor say Jesus IS the same yesterday, today, and forever. Note the added word IS. Jesus was once a baby and no longer is. He was bruised for our iniquities but no longer is being bruised never to be bruised again. He died, however He now sits at the right hand of the Father. He is coming again and the next time He will be King of Kings and Lord of Lords which He was not in the past while being here on earth. Anytime you mess with the Book that behavior will mess up your mind. Anon 9:23 is right on target. Its a shame most people depend on their pastor or priest to tell them whats in the BOOK!!!!

1 Thessalonians 5:21 said...

Anonymous (December 8, 2011 12:11 PM) said: “Hey, ‘watchdog,’ can you tell me the date of when you last led someone to the Lord?”

Anonymous (December 8, 2011 2:21 PM) said: “Usually when someone ridicules the statement ‘leading someone to the Lord’, [sic] it usually means they haven't ever done it and probably don't even understand what it means.”

No, your said question is a “church speak” euphemism for saying, “Hey, I have more notches in my gunbelt than you because I’ve led more people to the Lord than you. So, you have no right to criticize me or those who I am defending.”

Anonymous, this is a good example of how many Christians use “church speak” to try to manipulate other Christians. This is significant because America’s more traditional Christian churches are dominated by a culture which embraces and uses “church speak” in order to manipulate people.

Anonymous said...

Speaking of leading someone to the Lord. Some plant, some water, and others sow. I believe Watchdog has done all three. This site opens they eyes of a lot of folks to the light.

Anonymous said...

I month ago I repented of my "rule of thumb" pay check tithing. I read James Quiggle book on Old Testament tithing and he stated that pay check tithing is actually NOT equivalent to OT tithing AT ALL. The actual basis for an equivalent is AFTER you take care of your family (food set for eating). The food set for market was what was tithing. This means ANY minister who teaches paycheck tithing DOES NOT even know HIS OT AT ALL and is totally distorting the Old Testament view of tithing in application.

Larry Geiger said...

"We can move God's hand of blessing based on our level of faith to give."

Huh!?! I'm having trouble believing someone actually wrote this.

Ok, let me try this out. So Jesus main ministry should have been like Midas. Turn a lot of stuff into gold, get a lot of money, and give it to the Pharisees, Sadduces Priests and Sanhedrin to "move God's hand of blessing"????? For some reason, it's not working for me.

Anonymous said...

I am actually seeking in the scriptures and am seeking out teaching about tithing. I have a hunger to learn. But I sense such condescending and arrogance in the comment sections whenever I visit websites that discuss such matters. It grieves the Spirit inside me.

I think healthy dialogue is good for all of us to grow, but attacking others and not teaching and sharing the revelations God has showed us in his Word in a loving manner is not good for us.

I do not ascribe to a mega church. But I practice tithing and giving offerings. I am excited to do it. I have always desired to give whenever the opportunity arose. (not speaking of just a church context) I realize that I have selfish ambitions and sometimes I don't give of my time when I could have. But... I just feel there is a lot of mockery and belittlement going on here. I am here I suppose to learn more about the tithe and where it came from.

I don't feel pressured to tithe. I never have. I don't feel like I am placing myself under the law. I don't feel guilt either. But I am realizing that many do feel this way when it comes to tithing. I give my tithe because it honors God. I give my time because it honors him. I hope you all can hear my heart in this matter. I am genuinely seeking revelation on the practice of giving and tithing.

Is the reason some are so against it because they don't like the teaching of tithing or is it becasue they don't like the way the tithes have been stewarded by the church? I seems like some comments would suggest that if you teach on giving and tithing that you are peddling the gospel. Is it the concept of tithing or the fact that some have built monumental churches and ministries and our living wealthy off of the tithe of the people?

Thanks for your feedback. I appreciate any time you give to my question.

- Danielle